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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 7:57:30 PM
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John, I don't know what brought about the recession in Australian Superbike racing in the late 70s/early 80s. I remember the capacity limit was reduced to 1000cc, however I'd stopped racing by then. I've been told that the limit was reduced further to 750cc max, which meant that to win, you needed a 'factory' bike like an OWO1, GSXR750R, or CFR750R. The original Australian rules were 1200cc max capacity, and 'silhouette' construction. And that's what applied when the biggest ever motorcycle event was held at Winton.
The change to international rules stuffed a really good thing!! |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 12:00:24 AM
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John, I have a 1980 GCR book and have had a quick look but have only found maximum capacities for the classes and the unlimited being 1300cc, there is mention of Production Machine Racing and also Improved Touring Events but no mention of capacity limits for either class. I will look further into it over the next few days and see if I can find something more helpful. It may pay to try and dig out some old Supp Regs from somewhere as that would be a more likely source of accurate information than the GCRs. It isnt a lot of good relying on peoples memories as we all tend to get a bit selective with what we remember epsecially as we get older.
this concept is taking shape and looking quite interesting, keep up the good work.
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 3:28:40 PM
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| I will be speaking with one of the original organisers in a day or so, that may help too. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 5:59:53 PM
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| 1300cc sounds right, it was the old unlimited maximum right through from the 50s to the 80s. I could never understand why the production racing was so popular. The races ran for two hours at Calder, and the kids used to stand there in the cold for the whole race. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 8:32:05 PM
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Bin wurkin.
I am proposing a special section to encourgae the European and yank machines since we usta av, Laverda, Moto Guzzi, BMW and maybe even HD competing.
So I want to work out how to give them a lift and perhaps it will be an extra cup / trophy for NJC machines. What do people think please? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2007 : 09:58:14 AM
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| If my memory is correct, and it seldom is, the original Superbikes were 750cc production bikes and had nothing to do with unlimited bikes. Somewhere along the way things got changed to allow Ducati to run bigger engines than the Japanese 4 cylinder bikes and, as usual, the "bigger is better" theory stuffed it all up. I'm not sure what happened here in oz because we usually do things our own way. I guess the important thing is to decide whether we are promoting unlimited "superbikes" or fair dinkum superbikes which would probably impose capacity limits. I am in favour of the unlimited variety as we have more to work with. Is your memory better than mine? Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2007 : 11:06:59 AM
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| John F, post 1973 Z900s and H2 Kawasakis were available. I previously mentioned Vic Vasella trouncing Z900 mounted Alan Decker and Mick Hone, with Jim Eades 750 Laverda at Phillip Island in about 1974. The first superbikes were the Brough, and the Vincent and the Triumph 650, later the CB750 Honda and H1 Kawasaki came along. The answer was the 750 Norton Commando. I suggest the 'Historic Superbike' concept we are talking about now, should concentrate on what happened late 70s/early 80s. That's when the class was really successful. We obviously can't recreate history, but we can create a pretty good retro class with a really big following. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2007 : 11:16:25 AM
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| My original plan focus's directly on the 1970's style which I am still researching. There will be no post 1980 stuff in this part of the program. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 26 Jul 2007 12:11:37 PM |
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fastsuzuki
Level 2 Member
Victoria
20 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2007 : 12:07:32 PM
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| In reply to John Feakes, the superbike series you are talking about was the forerunner to what is now WSB. The late 70,s and early 80,s racing was under the rules of improved touring, loosely defined as the biggest motor you could build in a modified street chassis (thae advent of fancy braced swing arms etc) with no changes to the braking components. This led to a loose approach to the rules by some competitors and sponsors.I recall a Z1R with a complete fibreglass seat and tank unit covering a 6 litre alloy tank (watched it crash spectacularly in front of me at a reverse Winton) |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2007 : 12:16:44 PM
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It was certainly a period of flexability and intrigue.
I am confident we will sort it out soon enough.
I am heading towards recomending 1300cc engine max.capacity but within manufacturers stock frames with mods perhaps.
Its still in the research stage. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2007 : 6:39:02 PM
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| If I recall correctly the improved touring regs provided that the frames had to be road frames but could be altered to be strengthened. Swingarms were able to be replaced and clipons were not allowed. There was a 1300 cc limit derived from the general limit to all racing machines. The tank and engine cases were to be kept original. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 09:54:01 AM
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| Well boys, it seems the wheel has turned a full circle and we are back to where we started. Period 5 unlimited bikes. Where to now? Any advance on $1980? Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 12:41:34 PM
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| There is still life in the argument, in that there is a need to encourage the early European machines, Laverda, BMW, Moto Guzzi etc all of whom were amongst the original "superbikes'. perhaps an additional Euro or Atlantic Cup needs to be included. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 27 Jul 2007 2:41:15 PM |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 2:29:08 PM
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| If I also remember correctly there were a few Euros that ran in the improved touring classes back then, including some Slater Bros copy Laverda Jotas, even morini 3.5s and they were very competitive. Perhaps people are just a tad concerned about their machinary being dented in those areas and don't want to risk damaging their pride and joy. I am not really convinced about a separate class for them just as I am not convinced about BEARS today. After all how can anyone say the MV F4 is not competitive against the Japs with a straight face and say it should compete in its own class against Euros and yanks exclusively. Back then (1970's and 80's)there were no such luxuries as a special BEARS class and Laverda (Slater Bros.), Ducati (a la Paul Smart) and BMW (Gus Khan) etc still won races both here and OS against the Japs. ENCOURAGE is one word - challenge might be another. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 3:53:35 PM
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| Good! there is life and there is hope. Perhaps up to 750cc and unlimited? My knowledge of what is around is rather limited but I do remember a Ducati Imola at one of the historic meetings a few years ago. I'm sure there must be lots of Euro bikes hiding somewhere. How do we find them? I will start by calling EuroBrit to see if I can learn anything from those guys. Any more suggestions? Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 3:55:27 PM
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More History from America
British expatriate Reg Pridmore who won the first three AMA Superbike titles, first with BMW and then with Kawasaki. Pridmore was a thinking-man's rider, and one of the most consistent racers of the Superbike era. While he won only three AMA Superbike Nationals during his career, that was enough to give him the first three titles in series history, 1976-'78.
As Pridmore moved toward his 40th birthday, a young Wes Cooley came on as the premier rider in the class. He became the link between the hot-rod American culture that dominated the class in the '70s, and the factory warfare that took it over in the '80s. Cooley rode the awesome Yoshimura Suzuki GS1000 to the championship in 1979 and '80, and developed a fondness for riding the powerful Suzuki on its rear wheel.
The combination of Eddie Lawson and Kawasaki took over in 1981 and '82, but it wasn't easy. They arrived just as Honda jumped into Superbike racing with all its might and the considerable talents of Freddie Spencer. The Lawson/Spencer battles put the Superbike class on the map, especially when both of them used that series, rather than the AMA's premier Formula One racing program, as a jumping-off point for the World Road Racing Championships.
As Lawson and Spencer left for the grand prix circuit, the Superbike class was changing forever.
The initial class structure called for production-based machines up to 1,000cc in displacement, but in 1983, that limit dropped to 750cc for four-cylinder machines.
Honda appeared to have the edge with its new V-four Interceptor, ridden by Mike Baldwin and Fred Merkel. But it was Kawasaki's Wayne Rainey, piloting an older-design GPz750, that slew the Honda giant in 1983.
Honda was not to be denied, though, and with Fred Merkel, Rainey and Bubba Shobert, claimed the next five Superbike titles in a row. Through that period, Honda Interceptors won an amazing 72 percent of the Superbike races, and Merkel won three championships, tying Pridmore's record. He also topped the list with 20 career race victories, a record that would stand for over a decade.
The growing competitiveness of AMA Superbike racing is clear from the record in the '80s. Every one of the AMA champions from 1981 to '87--Lawson, Rainey and Merkel--went on to become world champions. And Spencer, who never managed to win the AMA Superbike title, claimed three world championships as well.
That era also saw Superbike racing rise to the top of road racing in America, as the Formula One class was phased out, and Superbike became the pinnacle of the AMA road-racing series in 1987.
The final year of Honda domination came in 1988, when Bubba Shobert crossed over from the AMA Grand National Dirt Track Series to win the Superbike title in a close battle with Suzuki's Doug Polen. Shobert, too, sought to move on to the world championships, but his career was cut short by injury.
The 1980s closed with a new generation of Superbike riders taking center stage. Suzuki teammates Scott Russell and Jamie James, along with another dirt-tracker, Doug Chandler, riding a Kawasaki, dominated the 1989 season. All three would eventually become champions, but it was James who took the title that year.
The early-1990s was a period of parity. Chandler, Thomas Stevens and Russell each won the Superbike title--Chandler and Russell on Kawasakis and Stevens on a Yamaha. Stevens' 1991 championship marked the only time the powerful Yamaha racing team managed to win the AMA Superbike title. Meanwhile, like many AMA Superbike champions before them, Chandler and Russell went off to chase world titles. Significantly, both of them returned to the States a few years later as the AMA championship continued to grow in stature.
The mid-1990s saw Ducati domination, with Doug Polen and Aussie Troy Corser. Polen reversed the previous trend, winning the Japanese and World Superbike championships before conquering America in 1993.
In 1995, Miguel Duhamel didn't just win the Superbike championship, he did it in record-breaking style. Duhamel won six races in a row giving Honda its first title since 1988. He would go on to break Merkel's long-standing record with his 21st Superbike race victory in 1998, and has since added a couple of additional victories, including an epic win over Mat Mladin in the 1999 Daytona 200.
The 1996 and 1997 seasons saw the return of Doug Chandler to the top of AMA Superbike. After four years racing in the world championships and an injury-plagued season with the Harley-Davidson team, Chandler reunited with Kawasaki to beat Duhamel in a pair of great season-long battles. That made him the third rider to win the AMA Superbike title three times.
But another new generation was on the horizon, and in 1998, a young rider by the name of Ben Bostrom, riding for Honda, won a hard-fought battle with Chandler and Mladin to take the crown.
Mladin was not to be denied, though, as he closed out the 20th century and opened the 21st with a pair of AMA Superbike titles in 1999 and 2000.
Meanwhile, American riders continued their success in world-championship competition, with Wayne Rainey, Kevin Schwantz, Scott Russell, Doug Polen, John Kocinski and Colin Edwards winning titles on the world stage.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 5:45:14 PM
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| John F, The Ducati Imola was the ex-Paul Smart machine that Ken Blake rode in Victoria in the mid-70s. Bob Brown owned it at one time and sold it off to a guy in WA for about $3000. A couple of Poms asked Bob where it was and bought it, took it back to the UK. They sent Bob an email and told him what they sold it for - it was a big number! Running Moto Guzzi 750s, even Laverda SFCs against Jap 1000cc plus bikes is a big ask! Chis Curran's Laverda, which appeared a few years back was 900cc, and he'd really worked at it. He beat Rex's bikes, but at what cost? A quick comparison of the bikes came at the 2004 Championships at Winton when Wally Campbell on Brook Henry's Ducati couldn't get past the TRex Hondas. Every time he got near Mick Meve , the taps were simply turned on, and Campbell was blown to the weeds! There aren't many of us who have bikes like the Vee Two Ducatis, or can ride like Campbell. That's what you need to get near a Z900 engined super bike in the hands of a better than average rider! I strongly suggest a 750 Superbike class could well accomodate the old European bikes. Even then anyone who is keen could build a jap winner in that class. It's a much easier way to go. |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 5:54:27 PM
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| A 750 Superbike Class, even if run in conjunction with the unlimited class, would solve one of my problems. I've long wondered whether I should convert my Norton Commando back into a 750, or enlarge it to 900cc into handgrenade form. In the olden days (early 70s) the Norton Commando could hold its own with most Japanese 750s. Even the H2 Kawasaki could be beaten with one, provided the Kawasaki didn't have a trick frame (like the H2R) |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 12:13:34 PM
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| Hi guys, I'm back. I have contacted EuroBrit and they are going to try to help with tracking down old 750s. I really think that we have to try to attract more than the current unlimited P5 bikes or we will end up going nowhere. Alan C why would you want to go to 900cc? Would you not end up with a motor that doubled as a cutaway drawing? Put it back to where it belongs and start the 750 class off. People can only follow leaders, no leaders, lots of lost sheep! Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 12:39:42 PM
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| We are getting there on the promotion of the Historic Superbikes website. Just waiting for some more information from John Daley to get it online. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 4:08:40 PM
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I now want names of riders from the 70's.
Jeff Sayle, Robbie Phillis, Andrew Johnson etc so I can then get some profiles. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 9:22:56 PM
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| Graeme Crosby, who was the fellow who ran a 900 Kwak, from Geelong I think, with Hilborn fuel injection? |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 10:15:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by john
I now want names of riders from the 70's.
Jeff Sayle, Robbie Phillis, Andrew Johnson etc so I can then get some profiles.
Goose Muir, Scott Stevens, Murray Sayle, Bill Horsman, Denny McCormack, Bob Rosenthal, Alan Hales, Warren Willing, Rob Hinton, Tom Gibson, Trevor Wood, Eric Hinton, Keith Turner, Len Atlee, Barry Smith, Ric Dobie, Denny Megalos, Peter Jones, Alan Osbourne, Kevin Cass, Dick Reid, Len Willing, Rick Perry, Dave Robbins, Ron Boulden, Paul Feeney, Greg Johnson, Steve Trinder, Ross Barelli, Peter Allen, Dave Burgess, Peter Stronach, Bryan Hindle, Rob Madden, Les Kenny, Max Robinson, Gregg Hansford, Graeme Geddes, Wayne Gardner, Garry Thomas, Roger Heyes, Jim Budd, Ken Blake, Gregg Hansford, Mick Cole, Alan Decker, Dennis Neill, Rod Cox, Graeme McGreggor, Paul Lewis, Tony Hatton, Ron Toombes, Roy Denison.
Do you want all the riders from the 70s?  |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2007 : 09:15:01 AM
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I think some of the riders you mentioned were never or rarely on superbikes. Denny Megalos always rode a TA125. Denny McCormack rode a 4 cylinder Kawasaki two stroke engined sidecar. I can mention a few good goers on Superbikes you can add to the list, and are probably still around:
Wayne Gardner, Laurie Barnett, Len Willing,Len Attlee, Gregg Johnson, John and Bill Crawford, Owen Ellis, Craig Hemsworth, Wally Campbell, Kevin McGee |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2007 : 09:23:56 AM
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| John F, Making my 850 Commando into a 750 is a really good sensible way to go. The trouble is that there has never really been a seperate 750 class and for years I rode an under capacity bike against what are now considered to be superbikes. It's simply dangerous to do that, and I'm too old anyway for that! It's possible to get near the front runners on a well developed Norton. The cost is excessive, and I'd probably end up on the deck anyway. I was rapt to see the two guys with the 750 Hondas at Winton in May. I told them that when there are 7 similar bikes, I'll be there with them! They told me they weren't interested in racing $30,000 bikes, $8000 is more like it! |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2007 : 12:17:31 PM
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| Hi guys, I just inadvertently accessed the Island Classic car meeting site. They accepted 520 entries!!!! What are we doing wrong? Back on track, should we look at promoting a 750cc class? Do we already have too many classes? Are we short of historic riders because it is easier, and often cheaper, to race a modern bike? Do we waste too much of our efforts in preaching to the converted? If we are to launch something beyond the current P5 unlimited class we have to get the message broadcast far and wide. Throw in any ideas and I will endeavour to run with them. I have time to spare now that I DON'T HAVE TO WORK. Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2007 : 8:11:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
I think some of the riders you mentioned were never or rarely on superbikes. Denny Megalos always rode a TA125. Denny McCormack rode a 4 cylinder Kawasaki two stroke engined sidecar. I can mention a few good goers on Superbikes you can add to the list, and are probably still around:
Wayne Gardner, Laurie Barnett, Len Willing,Len Attlee, Gregg Johnson, John and Bill Crawford, Owen Ellis, Craig Hemsworth, Wally Campbell, Kevin McGee
i thought we'd already determined there weren't any Superbikes until the very end of the Seventies - they were "Improved Tourers".
John asked for quote:
I now want names of riders from the 70's.
Jeff Sayle, Robbie Phillis, Andrew Johnson etc so I can then get some profiles.
not Superbike riders from the 70's.
Jeff Sayle never rode a Superbike, for any lenght of time (that I remember). I don't think Magee raced until the 80s. Denny McCormack rode TZs bloody well, he didn't need an extra training wheel! 
Get with the program, Alan |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2007 : 10:36:31 PM
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From a meeting at Motorcycling Vic the other day I am sure I heard that Jeff Sayle won the first Superbike race in Australia.
I have just bought the Aussie Motorcycle racing history book which I hope will cover what I want. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2007 : 10:55:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by john
From a meeting at Motorcycling Vic the other day I am sure I heard that Jeff Sayle won the first Superbike race in Australia.
I have just bought the Aussie Motorcycle racing history book which I hope will cover what I want.
I think you'll find that was the first Swann Series in '78, where the only "Superbike" was Croz on Ross Hannan's Yoshimura Z1000. |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2007 : 09:15:01 AM
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| I believe I saw the Kiwi, Crosby on a Z900 at Calder in the mid 70s. As early as 1974 I believe I saw the race wheren Vic Vasella on Jim Eade's SFC Laverda 750 beat Alan Decker and Mick Hone on Z900s at Phillip Island. In those days we never knew the term 'superbikes'. It was a late seventies/early eighties promotional invention. The big superbike era was from after the mid seventies to the mid eighties. The end of those halcyon days seemed to be in a bout 1983 when the GPZ 900 R turned up with water cooling and six speeds. It had 10 Km/hour over every other bike in the Castrol 6 Hour in '83. Also the Yamaha RG500 was very competitive with it. |
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