| Author |
 Topic  |
| |
Current Topic Rating:  | Join the Forum to Rate this Topic at: Classic Motorcycling Australia Forums
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 5:28:03 PM
|
We are starting a new web site, courtesy of David here, to promote thsi series. I hope by having a separate site we can concentrate promotion specificly for it and have members of the public going to that site to get information.
It will list the rules, purpose and record results. I hope to have some profiles of earlier riders and as I write some details of modern riders.
If anybody wants to help with information and ideas please mention it. I will ask for help as the idea progresses.
There will be no more arguments accepted about what is permitted to enter an event that covers P4 and P5 solos, its obvious, P5 or P4 solos.
We may have discussion about some minor details but the main push is simply to re -introduce machines that existed in the day within the current P5 and P4 Historic Rules.
the overall aim is to attract existing bikes and maybe some new ones but I guess we dont want Hotrods bred for th event.
The whole success of this series will rely on the efforts and willingness to play with some sense of fairness. We may even create series scrutineers to keep things resonable.
At the moment the organisation will rely on the efforts of a few to see the dream realised and them the efforts of the participants to keep it rolling.
Interstate etc competition and involvement will be encouraged but initially it is too difficult to run a national series. the paln is to piggy back on top of existing meetings.
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 16 Jul 2007 5:28:57 PM |
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 07:23:13 AM
|
| Great idea to set up a dedicated web site for the enterprise! One question - what is a 'hot rod' when you talk about historic bikes? I take it, it's a converted road bike? |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
 |
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 07:31:42 AM
|
| I define a hot rod as a machine built out of character, with the sum of the best parts of the era, i.e. a Kawasaki with Suzuki forks because they are deemed to be better. The essence of the original Superbike racing is what we are trying to achieve. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 1:29:48 PM
|
| John, You might think this is a strange request. When you get around to writing the 'rules' for the Historic Superbike Series, would you please concentrate on what is 'permitted' and 'encouraged' rather than what is 'prohibited'! I suggest we should have a mindset directed at getting new guys into the sport, rather than excluding them! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 2:28:07 PM
|
| Don't keep the site location a secret |
|
|
|
David
Site Administrator
Australia
999 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 4:27:24 PM
|
| Site is not a secret, just has not been made yet. Showed John a start of the look of it, which he likes. Wait for the launch real soon.. |
Regards,
David
Webmaster & Owner of Classic Motorcycling Australia
Quote: I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted to be paid. |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 6:49:19 PM
|
Rules;
Johns preferred rules
No bike can have any parts from another manufacturer installed.
John's realistic Rules
The current rules applying to P4 and P5 solo machines shall apply. End of story.
If we go past 1980 in the future, my personal opinion is to keep as close to the original concept of no mixing of manufacturers but I am happy to conduct discussions with people to finalise the rules for post 1980 machines. And since MA is conducting some reasearch about P6 it may be best to watch that discussion.
As for creating a list of permitted items I am not interested, that could be something a solo group can do. Remember the whole thing relies on solo riders getting on the bandwagon, there is only so much I can do to get the series started. I can say I reckon the only way to get ahead is to have a dictatorial approach, otherwise it will gewt bogged down with argument. I think the propsal is fair and workable, any variation would allow confusion and dissent to raise its head.
I will propose a closed to active participants forum to finalise any issues they feel need covering and for which they collectively will take responsibility for the outcome. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 18 Jul 2007 6:57:42 PM |
|
|
|
fastsuzuki
Level 2 Member
Victoria
20 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 8:43:22 PM
|
| John in response to your 'hotrods'comment, many of the bikes now have a mixture of components that would not have been allowed in the events such as Western Underwriters, Aussieland Series. The problem is that P5 is not defined in the context of improved touring machines or F1 type machines. many of the front running bikes have forks from a manufacturer other than the original. |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 9:13:41 PM
|
| It's pretty unrealistic to restrict components on a racing bike to one maufacturer. Do yopu really believe all the parts on a particular brand come from the one source? A lot of parts are made in Taiwan and occur on various models. In any case you would have to restrict the class to homologated models. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 9:28:17 PM
|
As I said, there is Johns prefered rules and the realistic situation rules, they are different.
Fast Suzzy, I need more info about the F1 type please.
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 9:44:41 PM
|
John, I'd question the advisability of your 'dictatorial' approach? If you examine the articles of incorporation of the HMRAV, I believe you'll find a clear intention for club proceedings to be DEMOCRATIC. There has long been a habit amongst the motorcycling fraternity for old snoozers to rule by decree. It just happens to be illegal! I'd point outjust one situation which exists right across Australian industry. If a person is guilty of gross negligence and has exercised the 'directive mind' in the event of a fatality, the situation can attract a manslaughter charge. These days the Coroner's recommendations are enforceable. I suggest you check with your club's solicitor before becoming too 'dictatorial'!
There is no need to take on that sort of risk, all you have to be is DEMOCRATIC. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 09:18:30 AM
|
This proposal has nothing to do with the HMRAV. It is a policy of the Historic Committee people.
As for suggeting negligence may cause issue, there are two avenues to now take;
1 - Close down the concept and do nothing to promote HSB, which I now feel is the best way to go.
2- People are responsible for their actions. I do not accept a motorcycle racer could put a case that he crashed because his Kawasaki did not have Suzuki front forks.
So unless I get feedback about the reality or support for the crap the legal scare is, the whole plan is shut down and I will no longer promote an Historic Superbike Series.
I have better things to do. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 19 Jul 2007 1:37:37 PM |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 1:36:36 PM
|
We may have a reprieve. fast Suzzy has been in touch and prestned some ideas to keep the idea alive and well.
We have come up with a plan to get 2 0r 3 bolkes active in the era and with suitable bikes to act as the "Wise men" of the series.
We will use the new site with a closed forum for wisemaen talk and an open one for everything else.
We have come up with some ideas for promotion all ready and I look forward to keeping the idea alive.
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 2:34:13 PM
|
I wish t oapologise for taking umbrage at John's 'dictatorial' comment. I'm carrying baggage from the days when motorcycling in Victoria was run out of one particular club, and the democratic process was neglected on occasion. Actually racing was probably better then than now. We had more 'name riders' racing at home!
I greatly appreciate John's valiant eforts to get the series up and running. It's causing a lot of excitement amongst us old snoozers.
I was talking to a circuit owner recently, and he said 'we could actually do something with that! These days the 'name riders' are only here 5 minutes, then they're off overseas.' You are all well aware of the group that runs 4 Australian circuits, of which this particuler guy is a main player. You may also know that the Queensland round of the (modern) superbikes was recently run under AASA insurance. I don't believe there is an intention to continue doing this, however it represents an alternative avenue. I agree with John's concept that for Australian competitors P4 and P5 eligibility rules should apply. I'm concerned that the rules may be written so tightly, that international riders may sometimes be excluded from results after a protest. I believe that the Australia (International) Historic Superbike Series concept is excellent, and really worth pursuing. I believe it will be 'bigger than Ben Hur'!!
I'm really looking forward to the new web site!
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell
|
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
fastsuzuki
Level 2 Member
Victoria
20 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 3:06:20 PM
|
| Alan, this thought process of one size fits all has been sucessfully challenged. I think we (riders/promoters) need to clarify a set of rules (that can make allowance for differing machines; how about 2 valve & 4 valve) and then we, the paricipants can build a machine to exploit the rules or make do with what we have? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 5:07:19 PM
|
| I am sure we can make provision for short term chnages to suit overseas teams if this idea ever gets big enough. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 5:54:12 PM
|
| The proposal for a secret "wisemans" closed forum area is nothing but the establishment of a cabal that has the potential to ultimately be dictatorial. The allegation that transparency has not been a strong point under the current arrangements is only given credence with such a proposal. Perhaps have the forum open but with outsiders not able to post. Then we can all see whats happening and comment elsewhere if necessary. Furthermore wisemen are usually not as wise as they portray themselves to be, they are more often lemmings. |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 6:01:06 PM
|
| I think your sugestion is closeto what we had in mind anyway so I see that as being workable. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2007 : 10:19:02 AM
|
| Gentlemen (and the rest of you), I think this thought pattern needs to be modified slightly. As I see things the main difference between P4 & P5 is in the wheels and tyres that they can use. Perhaps we need to think of this as P5 with the best tyres and find a way to encourage and permit those who wish to change their P4 bikes to temporary P5 bikes to do so(by having slicks on either 17" or 18" wheels). Your thoughts? Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 20 Jul 2007 10:42:24 AM |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2007 : 11:23:51 AM
|
Since Superbikes started in the late '70's it is becoming more apparent that P4 solos really dont fit with the Superbike persception and I am coming around to only involving P5 solos in the series.
Yes, P4 can race against them, but in terms of scoring points I am favoring not including them.
I will spend more time researching the history with Mick Hone etc and get back. My initial thoughts were to include P4 because I did not think there would be enough interest, but that is changing now.
Perhaps there is a need to do something to promote P4 Big bore bikes separatley. But that can wait.
BACKGROUNG HISTORY
In the very first AMA Superbike Series race at Daytona International Speedway in March of 1976, Cooley rode the Kawasaki to a fourth-place finish despite the machine's propensity for trying to shake Cooley off his saddle at top speed around Daytona's high banks. A year later, Kawasaki returned with a bike that handled marginally better and Cooley made it to the podium for the first time with a solid third-place finish.
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2007 : 8:23:41 PM
|
From Wikapedia "Superbike racing is a category of motorcycle racing that employs modified production motorcycles. Many countries such as Australia, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, United Kingdom, and the United States operate national superbike championships, and a World Superbike (WSB) championship has run since 1988.
The Superbike category is highly popular with manufacturers. Because the race bikes are built from production road bikes, the marketing value of a Superbike victory is significant. A common motorsport expression is "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday."
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2007 : 8:46:16 PM
|
From You must be logged in to see this link.
By the mid-1970s, American roadracing nationals came to be dominated by a single manufacturer – Yamaha. McLaughlin saw in production roadracing the opportunity for more manufacturers to get involved. Australian racer Warren Willing once stayed with McLaughlin during one of his visits to the United States. Willing told McLaughlin of a defunct Australian racing class called Superbike.
"It was like a light came on when he said the word Superbike," McLaughlin remembered. "Even though it came from Australia, it was uniquely American sounding. It described perfectly the new powerful motorcycles that were coming out at the time and it ultimately proved to be easily translatable in languages around the world."
McLaughlin had been a leading production bike racer since the late 1960s aboard Honda CB750s, when he was backed by his father’s dealership, so he was well versed in the details of production racing. He established a set of rules with the help of well-known tuner Jerry Branch and fellow racer Hurley Wilvert.
As rider’s representative to the AMA, McLaughlin began advancing the idea of holding what was then called Superbike Production races as a support class at AMA roadrace nationals. He picked up very important allies in the form of racing promoters and publishers Gavin Trippe and Bruce Cox. In 1973, Trippe and Cox included Superbike Production as a support race at the Laguna Seca AMA National in Monterey, California. Over the next couple of years, additional promoters requested the Superbike class and by 1976, with key backing from Jim France of Daytona International Speedway and the AMA’s Ed Youngblood, the new racing class gained national recognition by being a part of every AMA roadracing national.
"The time was ripe for Superbike racing," McLaughlin said. "The AMA was beginning to make roadracing independent from the traditional Grand National Series and Superbike could draw from a large pool of production racers coming from growing ranks of roadracing organizations such as the AFM, WERA and others. Plus, the management of the AMA realized that Superbike racing was essentially a return to Class C (production) racing that the AMA had favored since the 1930s."
In 1976, BMW approached McLaughlin, who had been racing ill-handling Kawasaki Z1s in Superbike Production for a couple of seasons, to ride a factory-backed Superbike. It was surprising that the conservative German company, known for its refined touring machines, decided to enter the new roadracing series. With a lot of engine work and chassis innovation by builder Udo Gietl, combined with superb riding from McLaughlin, Pridmore and Gary Fisher, BMW was successful from the start.
"What the BMW lacked in horsepower to Japanese multi-cylinder machines it more than made up for in handling," McLaughlin explained. "I rode both and I can tell you those early Z1s were more than just a handful. Those bikes would get into tremendous high-speed wobbles and it’s not a pleasurable experience to have handlebars shaken out of your hands at 125 mph. The BMWs presented unique challenges on their own, but were certainly more civilized."
Prior to his 1976 Daytona outing, McLaughlin was worried.
"The bike broke down every time I rode it," he told American Motorcyclist magazine when talking about practice for the '76 Daytona Superbike race. "I wasn’t very confident that it would last, so when the race started, I made sure I got a good start to look good while it was running."
Pridmore and McLaughlin raced wheel-to-wheel throughout most of the race. McLaughlin’s years at Daytona had honed his drafting skills and that’s how he ultimately edged Pridmore as the duo crossed the finish line. Announcer Roxy Rockwood actually announced that Pridmore was the winner, but a high-speed finish line camera proved that McLaughlin won the race by mere inches.
The AMA Superbike Series was off to an exciting start.
McLaughlin finished second to Pridmore in the '76 championship. He returned in 1977 and raced for Yoshimura, at first aboard Kawasakis, and later on the first of the famous Yoshimura Suzukis. With Yoshimura, McLaughlin earned another important first. At Laguna Seca Raceway in 1977 he gave Suzuki its original AMA Superbike victory.
In 1978, Suzuki debuted its GS1000. McLaughlin rode the new Suzuki to victory in Daytona despite an engine failure in qualifying that forced him to start from the back of the grid. He charged through the field, battled for a time with early leader Wes Cooley and eventually pulled away to a convincing win. The race victory helped launch the GS1000 as one of the most highly acclaimed Superbikes of its era.
The '78 Daytona Superbike victory proved to be the last for McLaughlin. He would race for Racecrafters Kawasaki in 1979, and then briefly as team manager/rider for the newly formed Honda Superbike squad in 1980, before setting aside his helmet to concentrate on running the team.
After a stint of running marketing for AMA Supercross promoter Mike Goodwin, McLaughlin was called upon by his friend Jim France, of Daytona International Speedway, to work on bringing European riders to the Daytona 200, which became a Superbike race in 1985.
The work McLaughlin did in Europe on behalf of Daytona morphed into the idea of forming a World Superbike Championship. In a remarkable inferno of energy, driven by sincere conviction, McLaughlin was able to bring together the dissimilar interests of the Japanese and European manufacturers, the archaic leadership of the FIM and race promoters in countries across the world to launch the World Superbike Championship in 1988. In its first year, the World Superbike Championship had a global television package that, among motorcycle enthusiasts, made household names of riders like Davide Tardozzi, Fabrizio Pirovano, Marco Luchinelli, not to mention the first World Superbike champion, American Fred Merkel.
World Superbike was an unmitigated success among racing enthusiasts, but behind-the-scenes financial problems with the marketing firm that purchased the rights to the championship led to McLaughlin being left out of the very series he founded. His original concept proved sound, however, and less than a decade later World Superbike rivaled and in some countries surpassed the popularity of the premier Motorcycle Grand Prix Championship.
|
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2007 : 1:21:30 PM
|
John,
I understand the concept you are putting forward but I think the present has moved us beyond that. The reality is that most "superbikes" today are really hot rods as has been pointed out elsewhere. For example my bike has a Suzuki swingarm because its easier than getting a Mackintosh swingarm that was the only option for a box section swingarm back in the period and thats just a start. I tried to keep it to the original format but that hasn't been competitive or safe. I think we will need to sped some time thinking about a suitable compromise between the past and the reality of the present. |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2007 : 8:23:38 PM
|
| Peter, I am aware of your point and I think thats why I stated my prefeered option and then the realistic option. I dont think there is a single chance of recreating the past with this proposal. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
OldKwak
Level 2 Member
Victoria
156 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2007 : 6:29:03 PM
|
| Unfortunate but true |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2007 : 10:20:38 PM
|
| But I am thinking of determining if I could find a separate trophy for the most original machine that has sucess. The idea being that if no "original" style of bike wins, then a different trophy will be awarded. I will have more details when I work it out after a good nights sleep. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2007 : 09:40:37 AM
|
I am starting to glean information about capacity and SB's seem to have started as 750cc 3 or 4 with a max. 1000cc in 1990.
Known as Improved Touring / Superbike.
From the 1990 GCR's.
Part 1 over 401cc - 750cc 4 stroke 3 0r 4 cyl.
Part 2 over 550cc - 1000cc 4 stroke twin only,
1989 Winner Robbie Phillis
There were Endurance racing events that permitted 1000cc 4 stroke 4 cylinders perhaps?
So I wonder how many actual machines are available to race in a realistic series. I have not seen many 750cc machines around and a few phone calls have verified the matter.
So I guess a compromise may be needed yet again to actually get a series happening. But I would still think we need to attract fair dinkum machines somehow. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 23 Jul 2007 09:56:25 AM |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2007 : 10:15:55 AM
|
John, There is probably room for two classes in Historic Superbikes. A while ago I was talking to Greg Lawn of Central Motorcycles, and asked him 'what's cheap'? He answered without hesitation '750cc Jap bikes'! It would be easy to run the two classes at the same time, and seperating them as the grids get bigger.
I've just read your previous posts , there's some really interesting stuff there. I agree that the Superbike concept doesn't realy apply to P4, but the reality is that Rex's bikes were always (and still are) of a type which existed in the US in the mid 70s! I suggest that anything which guys want to run from earlier periods should be alowed to compete to the class rules, regardless of period eligibility. The guys will just have to face the fact that they'll be unable to race in 'period' races at the same meeting as 'Historic Superbikes'! (their choice) |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2007 : 10:25:38 AM
|
Alan, P$ and P5 750 -1300cc machines race together now so I dont see a problem.
It is interesting that 750cc bikes are about and nobody is buying them. I know Greg Lawn well so I will drop around to chat with him about an idea. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2007 : 5:48:30 PM
|
| John, I know the guys love GSX1100s, hoever I believe a GSX750 would be a much better thing to play with. These days it's almost impossible to find a spoked wheel Katana, I believe the pop-up headlight 750s are about and available. The year might be wrong but the basic bike is the same as a gsx750 of 1980. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2007 : 7:01:26 PM
|
My research is continuing.
I have been given info that sugests the capacties were reduced from 1300cc to 750 to align the aussie class with world superbikes. I have planned to get 1977, 78,79,80 GCR books to find out. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Topic Locked
