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rocketman
Level 1 Member
7 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 5:46:24 PM
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At the recent Hampton Downs Barry Sheene meeting in NZ, I was chatting to one of the Australian period 5 crews about Australian classic sidecar rules and it was mentioned that in Oz you run a 650 classic class. If so how can I find out more about the rules for that class?
I've downloaded the general P3 and P4 rules and they have much in common with our pre 63 and pre 76 rules although our rules don't exclude kneelers and our pre 76 rules dont prevent rear exit. Are these rules enforced in Oz?
I suspect we should look at better aligning our periods with yours even if we retain some detail distinctions.
We had approx 43 sidecars split half and half between moderns and classics at the Barry Sheene, sadly this meeting clashes with one of your meetings at Winton I understand.
In my opinion the humble traditional 650's are under represented here being swamped by the bigger replica engined specials.
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2013 : 07:34:31 AM
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| International standardization of historic racing classes is a noble objective. However the rules are tailored to include or exclude certain types of bike based on what COULD have existed back in the era, not what actually DID exist. In the end I believe the answer is classic racing with classes based on technology differences and motor capacity. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2013 : 07:42:59 AM
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| A typical sidecar race in the late fifties had 500cc single cylinder bikes, and 650cc Triumph and BSA engined bikes in it and was usually dominated by 1000cc Vincent powered outfits. When Orrie Salter brought the 500cc Rennsport BMW home to Phillip Island in about 1961, it beat everything including the Vincents. The capacity classes were Junior and Senior sidecar, and I believe Junior Sidecar was for up to 650cc (until the 70s), however it was rarely ever run. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
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58thunderbird
Level 1 Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2013 : 08:33:41 AM
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G'day Rocketman, we do run a class here for 650cc in P3 however it is not an official class. So at a meeting like the Australian titles I don't think it would be recognised. It was introduced in Victoria several years ago to try and build numbers. It seems to have worked. It is now run at some meetings in Queensland and South Australia. There is also a sidecar challenge for P3 650's and Unlimited between Victoria, Queensland and South Australia. It's not an official event. It is organised between 3 clubs to encourage participation. Again it seems to be working. In addition to that in Victoria there is also an 836cc class for P4. P3 are allowed to be rear exit. This allows grass track type setups in. There are a couple running around in Victoria. P4 are not allowed to be rear exit. Hope that helps. |
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rocketman
Level 1 Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 1:05:51 PM
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Thanks thunderbird, I think we need to look at a 650 class here too. I was interested to see that your period 3 bikes can be rear exit!
Our biggest differences are that currently our equivelent of period 4 runs through to pre 76 and must be capable of front exit although most are operated as rear exit. Our period 3 rules sadly allow kneelers and don't have the restriction around steering head height. Our old school 650's cannot really compete (on dry tracks)for honors against some of the big replica motors available but we're not that much slower. As the classes were primarily run under NZCMRR meetings Japanese engined machines are the exception, but for that matter so are 650 sitters :( |
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58thunderbird
Level 1 Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 09:00:47 AM
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| Hi Rocketman, I used to think it was strange that P3 are allowed to be rear exit but P4 are not. However I now understand the reasoning behind it. There was a push some time ago to let kneelers into P3 but thankfully this was knocked on the head. I think the 650 class is a fairer way to go racing. A 750 Triumph will never beat a 1200 Vincent or Harley. The 650 class is mainly made up of Triumphs but there are a few BSA twins and singles getting around. Hopefully more will come out of the woodwork. Maybe you could run a class for 650 sitters and exclude kneelers. All in the same race but just make up a class. Good luck with it! |
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rocketman
Level 1 Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 1:12:24 PM
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| I agree thunderbird, a 650 sitter trophy is what we need. Just need to convince some of your period 3 (and 4) across the ditch for our February festival meeting... |
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58thunderbird
Level 1 Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2013 : 3:15:32 PM
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| I'm sure with a bit of coordination we could arrange that! We may have left it a bit late for next Feb, but how about the following? |
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Geoffpgrant
Level 3 Member
South Australia
204 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2013 : 1:04:12 PM
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| Hi Rocketman, I was one of the Aussies that ventured across the pond to Hampton Downs recently (P4 Kawasaki). I too was struck by the differences and similarities in our classes. Rear exit is strictly banned in P4 in Oz as is linked brakes which all of your pre 76s were using. These two in themselves make a massive difference - I did say to one person that you guys were effectively running F2 with old motors and it showed on the track especially going into corners where I was madly trying to brake while the Kiwi bikes were still under power! Our 1972 cut off for P4 was selected because it excluded certain bikes (TZ, Z900 etc) which have not been an issue for NZ given the 'no Japanese' rule. I am aware though that a couple of Kiwis are pushing for the inclusion of Japanese and you might then find that the dates might need to be changed to keep a reasonably level playing field. Perhaps I should also add that the 836 P4 class mentioned above was an effort to enable some of the original 'period' Hondas to race without having to compete against the BIG firebreathing monsters that they seem to be able to turn the humble 750/4 into nowdays and that the format works extremely well in my opinion with some excellent racing happening in that group. Cheers |
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rocketman
Level 1 Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2013 : 1:20:59 PM
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My humble rig, a pre 63 A10 sitter was there too and I believe we spoke. Yes our rules are in my opinion causing us some issues as we allow kneelers in pre 63 as well as not banning rear exit riding in p4 - although P4 rigs must be capable of front exit. We're also trying to build P5 which makes our pre 76 but non japanese rules a bit out of place. The problem then being how to align our rules without members considering changes being unfair on their builds. The last thing we need is to alienate our small pool of competing bikes although there are many we dont see and possibly because the rules currently disadvantage them! I'll raise this in the new year and see if there is a way forward.
Nothing wrong with jap bikes! I'd rather compete with authentic period race capacities not monster hotrods. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2013 : 1:21:41 PM
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Happy to add a bit of history here.
P3 650cc class was an HMRAV initiative to encourage more P3 which were sitting around to come out. It was based on the older rules from the 70's which listed 650 as a class.
For many years I fought the big bore Hondas and not being representative of the time, bear in mind I started arcing sidecars in 1970.
I could not get any recognition that big bore Hoindas were not representative, so I rolled over and obtained one. Only to be ridculed for a while.
But at the same time I started the argument about linked brakes in P4 not being correct and that argument was persausive enough to be adopted. Linked brakes were certainly not around in 1972 when I had the only sidecar with twin discs on the front and one on the rear, not even a sidecar wheel brake and I was considered advanced.
As the sidecar numbers built in Victoria with the HMRAV, I realised if we adopted 836 as P4 class, based on the fact many 836 engines were around in 1972, but not many 900cc machines, we may be able to build numbers.
Again this worked and I can say having rideen and passengered both big bore and 836 machines, they are nice to race with.
Since then we have tried to have the reality of 650 class and 836 Post Classic recognised but so far no good. Which is a pity since it has helped enormously in Victoria. I can say I am starting to encourage 650cc Post Classic machines, since I have now identified 4 550 suzuki's, some 650 Yammy twins that all could race and I am aware if they enter consistently with good numbers something may happen with the HMRAV.
As for aligning with another country, that may be difficult but I would love to see some BSA or Triumph triples appera here.
regards |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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rocketman
Level 1 Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2013 : 1:44:59 PM
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| John, thanks for that. I doubt we will change anything here immediately as we need to discuss these things with a wider audience but useful to consider the Australian experience and where applicable align which in the case of 650 and 836 I can see real benefits in, as well as the linked brake and front exit rules you have. We had a couple of 650 yamahas at Barry Sheene and we had some good racing with them. Cheers Tim |
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kiwi inquiry
