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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 3:58:09 PM
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Over time I will seek information from you experienenced people to explain what is required. Details of what bikes are good to ride and hwo to build them.
Thsi may help new potential riders decide.
Can you help me?
Types of bikes to consider
Period 3
BSA Bantum,
Period 4
Period 5
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 03 Aug 2009 4:17:26 PM |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 7:08:03 PM
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| Main period 3 125cc bikes were MV Augusta, Ducati, Moto Morini. Only one seen in Oz in the last few years has been 1 MV. The Walsh Bantum blitzed everything in the fifties in Vic. But you would have to be a retard not to win with a two stroke in any 125 race against four strokes. |
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keith campbell
Level 3 Member
Victoria
248 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 8:13:14 PM
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i know of 2 Bantams being built at the moment. Father and son duo preparing to enter the fray together just for the fun of it. Success,it comes with time,experience and determination but participation brings good times all the time....blow ups, crashes, more expenses but if you dont get into it you'll never know!!!!
So cut the bulla and get out on the track punters :)
Cheers Keith. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 9:56:31 PM
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I actually started my racing carear on aorks MV 125, at Winton in 1970. It was owned by Bill Rilar at the time.
Some people have talked about doing a separation of 2 and 4 stroke I think. Has anybody heard of that plan? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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Alan
Forum Moderator
Western Australia
353 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 9:57:47 PM
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Add 125 Bultaco`s and Honda Benly`s to the list
Alan Sidecar 21 WA |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 10:00:51 PM
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| which era please? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 12:53:56 PM
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In the mid '50s one of my neighbours had a 125 twin cam MV. I fell in love with that little darling but my father would not mortgage the family home to buy me one.
125s have never been readily available, hence the dominance of the Walsh Bantams here. A BSA Bantam would be the most unlikely starting point for a race bike but when there is nothing else...............
The world championships began in 1949 and were dominated by 4 strokes until 1963 when Suzuki won, thanks largely to that little turd Ernst Degner stealing Walter Kaaden's intellectual property.
From 1949 to 1962 Mondial won 4 times, MV 6 times, NSU twice and Honda twice in '61 and '62. Honda in '64, Suzuki in '65 and Honda again in '66.
1966 was the last time a 4 stroke won the world championship.
In the rest of the sport we had to make do with what we could get.
In P3 there is very little choice.
Bantam or spend a fortune on a Mondial,
MV, NSU or perhaps an early Honda, if you can find one.
P4 was dominated by Japanese bikes and these are much easier to find and the same goes for P5.
The class is divided into those who want to win and those who want to have fun, hence we have serious screaming 2 strokes out in front and road bike based "buckets" bringing up the rear.
It is an ideal class for beginners and for those who have limited "fun" budgets.
It is still possible to build a bike for under $2,000 if appearance is not important.
Or you could spend maybe $50,000 plus on an MV. If you could find one.
I am not aware of any 125s racing prior to WW2.
Anyone want to shoot me down?
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john on 04 Aug 2009 2:09:12 PM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 2:10:36 PM
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Would an Historic bucket class help?
Could we create a trophy for a 125 cc solo, if we did so would there be any restirctions or would you have it an open class? I am sure we can get something. What about a Bert Flood Menorial Trophy for classic 125 and something for the Post Classic group.
Many may try and poison my beer for this suggestion, but if it helps.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 04 Aug 2009 2:19:33 PM |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 5:02:47 PM
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John, I like the trophy idea. Ideally we should have 2. One for 2 strokes and one for 4 strokes as in open competition a 4 stroke would never win it.
We should kick the idea around I think.
The problem with buckets is that the 2 strokes are 100cc and the 4 strokes are out to around 180cc now.
I think those that have remained at 125cc race with us anyway. R.M. may be able to shed some light on the situation.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 10:25:04 PM
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| I meant 125 Historic Buckets, not those other cheaters. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 09:46:53 AM
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I like the idea of a Bert Flood memorial trophy.
I have only ever associated Bert with 2 strokes.
Does anyone know if he was ever involved with 125 4 strokes?
I would suggest the "Bert Flood Memorial Trophy" be a perpetual trophy for outright competition in the 125cc class and we have some other trophy for the 4 strokers.
I will give it more thought.
Cheers, John |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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bezerman
Level 1 Member
Victoria
13 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 6:01:20 PM
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| I built my bantam for around $1600 in 1990 , had a great experiance doing most of the work myself with the help of friends. It has had great success over the past years winning the up to 350 p3 class twice at winton 4x2 meet in 2000 , mac park , currant vic champ ect. Now over the past years 125's have dwindled mainly because most bantams were useing honda and other later wheels and forks ect. and then briefley banned rotary valves until i belive M.A. were taken to court over the matter as many bantams were converted to rotary valve induction . The main reason i feel is the introduction of log books excluded many bikes over many classes , perhaps allow bikes without log books to compete but no trophys to be awarded until they comply for a log book. As for four strokes, i never beat that Motobi ! |
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bezerman
Level 1 Member
Victoria
13 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 09:43:55 AM
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| I thought this topic was about the promotion of 125's. We are all governed by the rule book what modifications are allowed , now i'm a cheater ? Get your facts right pal . Yeah did win on a wet slippery track . Hey mines non disc valve ! Piston port ! As for walsh bantams they would not pass the noise regs with the exhaust they use , straight out pipe 14 inches long ! Never beat the hcs bantam either or Bultaco's , hey but i'm not whinging about it . When i do win its usually because of lack of competition , and thats what this topic is about getting more bikes out there ! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 09:51:42 AM
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Where are the details of the court action?
Is it correct?
I am looking for the facts.
If Bantams were turned into buckets thats one thing, I doubt we would be happy to run "buckets" at a classic event.
As for not beating the 4 Stroke, race for 2nd place instead and still have a great day. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 07 Aug 2009 09:53:48 AM |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 10:24:30 AM
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From MA
1. If 125cc Historics want to run, then they have to comply with the Historic regulations.
From beezerman "
and then briefly banned rotary valves until i belive M.A. were taken to court over the matter as many bantams were converted to rotary valve induction "
2. MA has never been “taken to court” over this or any historic item. There was very few “rotary valve” Bantams in the era but if people can prove that their machine was adapted in the period, or is a replica of a machine from the era, then it should be approved.
So lets stick with reality.
the topic is How to Race a 125, not "Why aren't people racing", that can go somewhere else please.
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John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
Edited by - john on 07 Aug 2009 10:26:22 AM |
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bezerman
Level 1 Member
Victoria
13 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 10:27:53 AM
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| Can't give all the facts , wasn't me but it was the hcs bantam after it was sold over to W.A. Correct me if i'm wrong as it was a few years ago !Now all i was stating is that many bantams that used to compete were useing wheels brakes and forks that would not be allowed now , ans thats why they have dissappeared . Raced against buckets at Mac Park , good fun , good racing ! |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 10:38:39 AM
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By chance I was talking to somebody who knows the machine, and has a photo of it at Darley with the rotary valve at the back of the barrel in the late 50's with Ian Free riding it.
The current hcs has a different motor in it, the current frame was made in about 1982 by Ron Glover with Bill Petrie helping. Wheels by bernard andromon and maybe a bultaco front wheel.
The original repaired frame was lost in the Ash Wednesday fires.
I guess if bantams want to race, a change of wheels, brakes and forks fairly readily. |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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john
Forum Moderator
Victoria
3130 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 11:04:29 AM
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| Can other front forks be used to replace honda ones? |
John Daley Sidecar #68
' there are those who do, those who dont do and those who undo. We must lampoon the latter." |
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bezerman
Level 1 Member
Victoria
13 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 3:19:37 PM
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| I wish to retract my statement about M.A. taken to court , it was based on false information passed on to me. I apologise to M.A. and anyone who may have been offended by past statement , i now know it was untrue. Learnt my lesson , don't say anything unless you have the facts . |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 2:01:07 PM
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| Malcolm Turnbull perhaps? |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2009 : 9:32:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by john
Over time I will seek information from you experienenced people to explain what is required. Details of what bikes are good to ride and hwo to build them.
Thsi may help new potential riders decide.
Can you help me?
Types of bikes to consider
Period 3
BSA Bantum,
Period 4
Period 5
Period 4
Yamaha AS3, TA125
Period 5
Honda MTR, RS, CR, H100
MBA 125
Minerelli 125
Morbidelli 125
Kawasaki KH, KX, (KX with RG500 barrel  )
Sanvenero 125
Suzuki GS125, GT125,
Yamaha TZ125
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“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
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revhd
Level 2 Member
Victoria
108 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2009 : 9:52:44 PM
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period 4
montesa
bultaco
sachs
villiers
ducati
motobi
benelli
the list goes on there are many bikes of that period that are eligable |
125 alliance |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2009 : 4:48:15 PM
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Could add EMC Puch for P3, not that we're likely to see one here.
In the 50's and early 60's 125s were not common, they didn't seem to fit in with the British manufacturers way of thinking. Most were of European origin.
Paton made a little green gem, but we'll never see one here. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2009 : 08:46:50 AM
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| I seem to remember that there were a few two valve 125cc Ducatis around in the 60s, but they were never anything that anyone really wanted. Might be worth asking Greg Lawn to keep his eyes open in the states for one? |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2009 : 1:19:14 PM
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By chance I was talking to somebody who knows the machine, and has a photo of it at Darley with the rotary valve at the back of the barrel in the late 50's with Ian Free riding it.
Does that mean we can use fuel injection on period 3 bikes be cause there was a rudimentry form of it widely used in the UK in the 50s known as the Wal Phillips fuel injection system? I suggest that only machines which actually had rotary valves in the fifties should be allowed to run it in P3. In any case we should probably consider banning two strokes from P3 races! What is turning up now is largely bullsh.t! - full of Yamaha parts. |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2009 : 5:15:11 PM
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The main problem is that there are very few P3 125s around.
I have been told that there is an MV in someone's lounge.
The only way I can see to improve the situation would be to adopt a far more lenient attitude to the "date of manufacture" bull**** that rules the roost.
If we allowed bikes of period technology regardless of date of manufacture we could possibly boost the number of bikes competing.
Perhaps a list of eligible bikes that, although not strictly correct, nevertheless fit in, would be a good way to go.
Who would risk a $50,000 plus MV when it is possible to build a good CB125 for under $5,000? They are really not that much different when all is said and done. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2009 : 9:48:15 PM
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The only way I can see to improve the situation would be to adopt a far more lenient attitude to the "date of manufacture" bull**** that rules the roost.
Stop being so rational! |
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Alan Cotterell
In a time out state
Victoria
421 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2009 : 9:56:00 PM
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| It seems there aren't many period 3 125cc fourstrokes, a few period 4 125cc fourstrokes, and even fewer period 5 125cc fourstrokes. And why would anyone race a 125cc fourstroke anyway? The two strokes will always blitz them? It just a bit sad that there are really quite a few eligible 125cc fourstrokes which could be cheaply made into racers, in all 3 periods. They'd provide an easy way into historic racing for newbies, and provide a lot of fun. Same old message - LOSE THE PERIOD BULLSH1T IN 125cc RACING and separate the fourstrokes from the two strokes! |
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john feakes
Advanced Member
Victoria
791 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2009 : 08:12:01 AM
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How come that when I used that great traditional Aussie word bull**** it was censored yet you managed to get it published in all its glory?
Anyway, a rose by any other name..............................
It would appear that the automatic censor doesn't recognise capital letters. |
125 RIDERS' ALLIANCE
A wise person simplifies the complicated, a fool complicates the simple. |
Edited by - john feakes on 23 Nov 2009 08:16:03 AM |
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CB72
Level 2 Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2009 : 11:08:24 AM
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It seems to me that you have already identified both the problems and the solution.
The problems are many and varied but lack of suitable machines and disparities between old and newer and 2 and 4 stroke seem to be the main problem. In other words, there are not many suitable bikes and they are too "unequal".
The solutions are equally clear. JF has suggested a move away fro year cut offs to allow all years in the same capacity race.
That's a great start but is still a 2 stroke race and a modern one at that, so if we want to throw out the Year constraint, why not nudge the Capacity constraint aside as well and go for a new class that crosses all those barriers. I just replied in the general forum to this - maybe that reply needs to be moved to here.
Look at a Combo buckets, 125s etc class that is as fair as possible and is open to a much wider range of machines.
BTW, MA makes a general set of rules but may be happy to see a club actively trying new formats to make this sport more affordable and more fun.
Try a claiming rule if someone is spending too much.
It will take more than 5 minutes to get this right, but is has a lot of potential to be the most fun class out there.
Play with the rules and see what bikes would fit and how to get the most fun from the fewest bucks. A propos of nothing, I'l tell you that our old 91 RS125 is more fun that my TZ350 and is quicker around a track too. Just saying... |
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How to race with a 125
