| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 08:10:38 AM
|
quote:
in a P5 two stroke simply increases the wear rate dramatically.
Only if you forget to mix oil with it!  |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
 |
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 07:18:14 AM
|
| Riders such as Dale Brown and Lawrie Johns used methanol in Suzuki Cobras in the early 70s. It makes a problem with keeping reasonable bore clearances for any length of time. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
max
Level 1 Member
Victoria
1 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 5:36:10 PM
|
This seems to have generated a bit of interest!
I raced sidecars in the 1973-80 period, and also P4 sidecars now for a few years on both avgas and methanol, and notice no discernable performance diference.
Most of the negative comments seem to be coming from people who have had no experience with this excellent fuel. Please make the effort to learn the facts before aguing against this gift.
As one who proposed the change to MA, the following is a copy of my submission;
"I have been approached by some P5 sidecar owners for a rule change to allow methanol fuel for P5 Sidecars, if not all P5 classes.
I personally agree that methanol is the perfect racing fuel for this class, and fully support this request.
The rationale as follows;
*Methanol was allowed and used in the period, unlike the unleaded fuel currently specified.
*All P5 four stroke engines are air cooled, and suffer overheating in racing conditions (particularly sidecars with greater load and limited air flow) which is detrimental to engine life and subsequently to owner's budgets. Methanol runs cooler and prolongs engine life.
*The youngest of these engines is at least 27 years old, and any allowance to prolong their racing life should be considered.
*The availability of leaded fuel is very restricted and inconvenient to obtain.
*As P5 is prior to the introduction of unleaded fuels, these engines are using fuel (Rule 16.10.0.1(b) ) for which they were not designed, resulting in burnt valves & valve seat regression.
*Apart from expensive and difficult replacement of the valves and seats with a type suitable for ULP, which are often not manufactured for these engines, the only protection against this engine damage is to add lead replacement additive to the fuel. This option is specifically prohibited under Rule 16.10.0.1 (c).
*Methanol fuel is environmentally friendly, inexpensive and easy to obtain."
Max Hooper
Sidecar #69
|
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 05:53:59 AM
|
| Max, I believe the comments you've made about using methanol in four-stroke engines are all valid. The only reason I've opposed the change in fuel permitted for P5, is the fact that it may also apply to two stroke engined machines. I believe it's not a 'one size fits all' situation. I'd support the change for four stroke sidecars, not for two stroke solos. As you say, it's an excellent fuel and improves engine life in four strokes. In a two stroke, it gives a much more dramatic increase in power. That wouldn't matter, however I've never seen segregation of two stroke machines from four strokes in historic races. Why increase an already substantial advantage of two stroke machines over four strokes, particularly in solo races? Another consideration is that methanol is already in use in P4 machines. When P4 and P5 machines race together, it evens out the competition when P5 bikes don't use it. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
Gosling1
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
52 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 6:12:32 PM
|
| Methanol should be restricted to P5 sidecars only. All the opposing views are up on the PCRA website, so no need to replicate them all here. |
".....we're gonna get it this time......he had his indicator on....." |
|
|
|
Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2007 : 11:28:27 PM
|
I think it's time to reiterate!
As I said before:
quote:
Originally posted by Bummers
My KX125 based 2-stroke, when ridden by Dave Burgess in 1976, was equal 1st with Geoff Simm on a TA125 in the 125 race at Bathurst. (The only motorcycle dead heat at Bathurst, I've been told). Burgess was also 2nd to Simm in the 1976 Aust C'ships. Both bikes were on methanol.
Now days, I can manage to get 2nd in the P5 125 class at both Mt Gambier Aust Champs last year and at BS Memorial at Eastern Creek this year. Both times I was beaten by a watercooled RS125 that was about 6 secs a lap faster than my bike at Eastern Creek. I'm sure I've got 1 or 2 secs to pick up in track knowledge at EC and maybe I'm not as quick as the RS rider but I would like to be "competitive" in a straight line. If a watercooled (1981 model) RS125 is eligible for P5 because its parts book was printed in 1980, surely I should be able to run my bike as it ran in the era, on methanol.
Or can someone lend me a Morbidelli?
and
quote:
The main benefit was that engines ran cooler & the power didn't go off after the engines got hot.
Most P5 bikes are air cooled so any use of Methanol will only make them more competitive with the few liquid-cooled bikes of the era, mainly early TZs. (And a watercooled RS125 Honda or 2, whose owners reckon they were available before end '80).
Round and round we go...
until we disappear up our own ****s.
|
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
|
|
|
Gosling1
Level 2 Member
Australian Capital Territory
52 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2007 : 9:51:35 PM
|
Will you be updating this thread with some news about the topic John ?
|
".....we're gonna get it this time......he had his indicator on....." |
|
|
|
rogerjo
Level 1 Member
New South Wales
2 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 8:31:56 PM
|
Gee I haven't been asked about methanol?
STUPID IDEA!
Expense! Time tuning! And What For!
The extra time to flush everything at beer o'clock!
Come on! |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 10:48:43 PM
|
When have 'expense, time and tuning' ever been a reason to abstain from doing something in motorcycling?
What this forum is supposed to be about is 'historic racing'. It's about nostalgia bullsh! My memory is fading, but wasn't alcohol banned after 1972 for all motorcycle sport except speedway? If you want to go faster buy an R1! |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
Black Pete
Level 1 Member
Northern Territory
14 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2007 : 01:17:45 AM
|
For those interested the closing date for responses to MA is the 24th August 2007. Responses can be from State Controlling Bodies OR individuals.
Some time after this date the commissioners have a teleconference (usually) to discuss & determine.
Cheers, Pete  |
|
|
|
Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2007 : 07:39:31 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
wasn't alcohol banned after 1972 for all motorcycle sport except speedway?
Banned from Jan 78, in Australia |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
|
|
|
acotrel
Advanced Member
Victoria
2147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2007 : 7:27:41 PM
|
| I believe you are probably correct about the date being 1979. I believe that from about 1972 most riders lost interest in methanol for use in TZ Yamahas. There was a myth going around that it didn't work in watercooled two strokes! Most of the riders of big 4 cylinder Jap bikes didn't use it anyway. |
Is your machine authentic or merely eligible? |
|
|
|
Bummers
Level 3 Member
Queensland
244 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 10:14:03 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by acotrel
I believe you are probably correct about the date being 1979. I believe that from about 1972 most riders lost interest in methanol for use in TZ Yamahas. There was a myth going around that it didn't work in watercooled two strokes! Most of the riders of big 4 cylinder Jap bikes didn't use it anyway.
Most of the riders of air cooled 125s used methanol for most of the P5 period, so why shouldn't we still?.
Roll on 24th August  |
“Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.” Steve McQueen |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Topic Locked
